Rwanda to Maine with Dieudonne Karawanga

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to the Root Cellar Podcast. We believe that God is at work restoring broken lives, families and neighborhoods around the corner in Lewiston and Portland, Maine, across New England and the world. On this podcast we'll discuss what God is doing on our team at the Root Cellar through our partners in Maine and invite guests from away to share how God is at work among them. I'm your host, Joel Furrow. Thanks for join all by him. [00:00:39] Speaker B: Why. [00:00:40] Speaker A: The good man dies, Bad man thrives in Jesus Christ Cuz he loves them both. We're all cast away in need of welcome to the Episode three of the Root Cellar Podcast. I'm really excited for you to hear today's conversation. I had a chance to sit down with our director in Portland, Judene Karuanga. Judene is from Rwanda. He brings with him just a wealth of experience, was actually part of the reconciliation movement there after the genocide in the 90s and just has a real depth of experience and a really deep and tangible faith and joy about him that he, he really brings that to the work every day. And he's, he's overseen a lot of changes in our team over the last year in Portland. New employees, a growing volunteer base, and he's done so just a real with with a real servant's heart, an opportunity he looks for ways to serve all the time. You'll catch him leading a staff meeting or cleaning a toilet or mopping a floor or really doing anything that needs to be done around the root cellar. And it's a genuine joy to work alongside him. And I'm excited for you to hear this conversation, learn more about him and learn how God has uniquely positioned him for this time at the Root Cellar in Portland. He joins a long list of leaders here holding that director role. And I'm excited for what he's already done and how God's going to use him in the future. So without further ado, here's my conversation with my friend Judene Karwan. This is kind of fun. I'm in my office, which is about 30ft from Junai Karwanga is right now in our Portland location. One day we'll have a really nice studio maybe and we'll be able to record in the same room. But this is the best best we can make happen right now. So Junai, before I ask you any questions, I want to just make sure I introduce you correctly. Junai is our director in our Portland location and he is joining a long line of individuals who have dedicated their lives to serving the city of Portland through the root Cellar. And he's our newest. One of our newer employees, has been with us almost a year. Right. [00:02:55] Speaker B: Yes. [00:02:55] Speaker A: It's coming right up on a year in. In this position. And it's been just such a blessing to get to know you, my brother, over the last year. [00:03:04] Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you very much. [00:03:06] Speaker A: And just. I'm just. It's just. It's been awesome. So I'm excited for everybody to get to know you today, hear some of your story and. And hear kind of your outlook on ministry within the root cellar in the city of Portland. And. And, you know, what is. What's God ultimately doing? But let's. Let's go back before we get there. Let's go back a little bit. Could you tell us a little bit about Judene the man? [00:03:26] Speaker B: Yeah. As you said, my name is Diodeney Karangwa. I am from Rwanda. I was born in Burundi because I was born in exile. But later when the war was over, the genocide. So I went back home in Rwanda. And then there. Actually, I went there while I was already saved. Maybe if I go a little bit. A little bit before my salvation. [00:03:54] Speaker A: Sure. Yeah. [00:03:55] Speaker B: Yeah. I was just a kind of revolutionary guy. You know, my belief was really weird. You know, I believed in those people who were communists, like Lenin, like Che Guevara, like those people who will just teach you how to fight for having your. Your country. Something like that. [00:04:19] Speaker A: So then, I mean, kind of a revolutionary guy. That's pretty revolutionary. Yeah. That's a. Yeah. [00:04:26] Speaker B: Yeah. So it. It wasn't bad because I remember when we were in exile, some guys cheated My. My father, actually. They took our house by force. Then I remember I asked. I asked, can you do something about that. That situation? He told me, no, we are refugees. We. We can't do anything. So it was a kind of revolt. It brought a revolt in my. In my heart because they came with guns. Then I said to myself, I think maybe guns are solution to everything. [00:04:58] Speaker A: Yes. How old were you when this happened? [00:05:00] Speaker B: I was. I was 11, 12. [00:05:02] Speaker A: Wow. Yeah. [00:05:04] Speaker B: So can you. [00:05:05] Speaker A: I mean, most people don't. I mean, Americans, and I'm. I'm very ignorant to this, too. I. You know, we. We think about our politics in America, and we don't ever think about anyone else's politics. Something we're pretty. Pretty guilty of. Could you tell us a little bit? I mean, this is. This goes back pretty far, you know, this goes back maybe about 50 years, right? [00:05:24] Speaker B: Yes. [00:05:25] Speaker A: So you mentioned the being in exile, being from Rwanda, but in Burundi. Could you. What's the. What's going on. Could you take us, Give us a little history lesson? [00:05:34] Speaker B: Yeah. What happened is my. My four grandparents, they were kings. I'm from a king lineage in my country. So when Belgium, When Rwanda and Burundi were under Belgium mandate, so Belgium decided to divide two tribes, Hutu and Tutsis, to rule them. So then. Because, you know, in the past, Kings, Tutsis and other tribes, you know, in Rwanda, we are Tutsis, Hutus, and twa. So they were living in harmony. Yeah, There was no problem, because I remember when I was talking to my father, asking him about those questions, those issues, he told me that we were fine, because I remember even there is a Hutu guy who took cows, my father's cows, trying to bring them back to cross the border of Burundi and to bring them to my father. Obviously, they stopped him. So, you see, he was very. He was a very good guy. He loved my father. And I could see even how my father, you know, some workers home or some people who will repair our house, people who will teach us in our schools. My father was very good with them. I never saw any discrimination. So obviously there was a kind of. A kind of disappointment because they didn't understood how those neighbors could burn their houses, looking forward to. To kill them. So, long story short, your family. [00:07:13] Speaker A: Your family couldn't understand why all of a sudden there are these neighbors trying to kill them. [00:07:18] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. For example, you know, in 1950, 59, when Belgium decided actually to revolt Hutus against. Against the Tutsis because, you know, the majority. So then they decided to divide them. And I remember even a very good example, a Hutu, I forget his name, he was a very good guy, actually. He fled with our parents in exile. His name was Rukeba. And he told those people of Belgium, tell them that we cannot accept what you are telling us because we've been always the same people. And then they told the king to give up everything. And then that Hutu, Rukeva was telling to king, no, don't accept that. We have. We want kingship, want to remain as we were. Actually, he told them, even he thought to those Belgian people that, you know, we're going to die, all of us here, if you don't want us to live as we want, obviously, you know, they armed Hutus, and then later on, they burned the houses of our parents. Then they fled. You know, some parents went to Uganda, others in Burundi, others in Congo, others in Kenya. Yeah. And later on, obviously, from those neighbor countries, our diaspora became very big because others went. We went Abroad, you know. Overseas, yeah. Then. Then it happened like that. We. I found myself just in. In Burundi with my father and mama and my siblings. Then after that event of losing that house, then my father told me that you cannot do anything, you are a refugee. So I developed in my mind perfect place for me, the ideal place is my country. So I developed that kind of revolutionary stuff later on, the revolution. I was a great mobilizer. I was a singer, I was a speaker. I did a lot of concerts, a lot of conferences. I really moved everywhere just to mobilize people. We have to go back home, actually, from my 14 years old, I was just busy doing that. [00:09:47] Speaker A: So, I mean, you can tell I. I know you now, obviously, but it, you know, you're a very charismatic type of person. It's easy to. It's easy to get excited when I'm. When I'm with you. And so I can only imagine as a teenager. [00:09:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:00] Speaker A: So many years ago, kind of the. And you're saying that that was a. You were. You got involved really from a political sense. You're trying to mobilize people politically to return effectively. [00:10:11] Speaker B: Yeah, actually, we had. We had a kind of slogan because our ideal. Ideal revolution because of ex. Was Exodus for Jews. So the slogan was. They used to say tomorrow to Jerusalem. Yes, we used to say tomorrow to Kigali. [00:10:30] Speaker A: I see. So it's even kind of a spiritual kind of mixture of this idea. [00:10:36] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. We called Rwanda our Zion. [00:10:40] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:10:42] Speaker B: So I grew up like that. You know, we had a tremendous mobilization, a very powerful mobilization. And then, you know, the extent of having leaders in Uganda, they were very strong. The diaspora of Burundi, Kenya, Tanzania and Uganda, even outside those countries, America, France, Belgium, I mean the entire Europe and other countries, they were together and then they fought politically, militarily, then they won the. The war. Because, you know, the president, the one who was behind those killers, the one who committed genocide in Rwanda, refused us to come peacefully because he used to say, the cup is full. There was no place for us to live. Then, you know, we decided to go there by force. [00:11:32] Speaker A: So you're describing the genocide in rwanda in the 60s. [00:11:37] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a phrase. In 60s it was a genocide. Was a genocide. The difference is they were. They were able to. To run away. Actually, you can see that in 60s, the Belgium people actually created a kind of many corridors for tootsies to. To run away. But the 1 in 94, they closed because they wanted to finish all of them. Actually. They didn't want. [00:12:08] Speaker A: The. [00:12:11] Speaker B: Rpf, the movement which was coming to liberate Rwanda to find their people. It was closed. [00:12:23] Speaker A: They didn't want them to find anyone who supported them. [00:12:26] Speaker B: Yeah, they closed, and then they submitted. They. [00:12:30] Speaker A: So this is fascinating. I'll be honest with you. This is just my American ignorance. I did not realize that there was a Hutu, Tutsi conflict in the 50s and 60s at all. I thought in my head, you know, I'm thinking Hotel Rwanda. I'm thinking about the, you know, the 90s. But this, that. That. That conflict goes back a few generations. [00:12:54] Speaker B: Yeah, it goes back a few generations in the past. For example, started 1959. And then, you know, the first exile was that period between 59, 60, and then there was another one in 63. And then. And then later on, we. We experienced the genocide in 94. [00:13:25] Speaker A: So this is. This is interesting. I mean, thank you for. This is educational for. For me and hopefully for others, too. So the. There's a difference. I know your story, A. And I'm not gonna. I don't wanna take away anything, but, you know, you shared with me and the interview process, and then this has become part of our ministry here. In some ways, you were part of the reconciliation movement. Yes, in the 90s, after the genocide in Rwanda. In the 90s. So really, this is. And that just has so much even. It's amazing to me, the story, you know, some of what you've shared about that, and I'd love to hear for our listeners and those who are watching to hear these stories too, but the depth of being able to return to Rwanda and. And do so for the purposes of reconciliation. I'm thinking about that. That's how I know you. That's who I know you to be. But then now you're telling the story about this youth who's leading this mobilization. That. [00:14:17] Speaker B: Yes. [00:14:18] Speaker A: Doesn't sound to me like you were interested in reconciliation then. [00:14:24] Speaker B: No, it doesn't mean I wasn't interested in reconciliation. It's just because for me, in terms of my belief, before I met Jesus, I was just a good guy trying to fight for justice, trying to fight for my rights. But I didn't have any kind of discrimination because, for example, the leader, the main leader of our revolution, actually, he refused to go back to Rwanda as a Tutsi. Yeah. He took other Hutus who were in exile for us to go back to Rwanda as Rwandis, not only Tutsis, obviously, the majority of diaspora was Tutsis because they are the ones who left us as a big mass. But when we returned, we Returned as Tutsis and also Hutus who were snigs in exile with us. [00:15:18] Speaker A: There were Hutus who sided with you? [00:15:20] Speaker B: Yes, yeah. [00:15:21] Speaker A: And also had to run. Yeah, yeah. And we've met some of those families in Hutus who were. I've met some of them in. In our Lewiston location before, actually. We've had a few of our English students who were. That was their. Their families. One of the students, he shared with me his. His family story. [00:15:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:39] Speaker A: And that was his situation, was that his. His father was a Hutu and. And. But ended up siding with the. With the Tutsis, and that was one of the reasons he had to leave. [00:15:48] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. You know. You know, we. We have many Hutus who are heroes, you know, Hutus who refused any kind of segregation. Some. Some even died during the genocide, refusing to kill their neighbors. Yeah. And other died. Died when. When our military were fighting. So we have a tremendous past in terms of one people against injustice. So then later on, obviously, when we were back, before we were back home, I was somewhere just mobilizing. And then, you know, it was a very long journey. And then I used to be very arrogant towards Jesus belief. You know, my mom will tell me, jesus, you need Jesus. I said, no, no, no, no, no, don't tell me about Jesus. I just need to be a strong guy able to fight, able to convince people that I have to go back home. And then one day, we were in a very long journey, you know, mobilizing people, you know, taking young people to journey, to go to. Through Tanzania to join others to fight. Then I remember I felt in a kind of river full of mud. Then, actually, I saw death in front of me because I couldn't move from there because three days almost without eating, I was really dying. Then I realized that, actually I believe that it was the way for Jesus to show me that I cannot do anything. What is in my mind, it's correct in terms of fighting against injustice, but in terms of real life justice. I am really going astray because I was dying. Then I said, jesus of my mom, if you are really God, save me from this place, then I will accept that you are God. So the description in that moment is very difficult. I always tell people that it is really very difficult to describe that situation because how, for example, my body was moving in the mud, and then I bumped my back on a tree which was in the river, maybe an old tree which fell in the river. [00:18:05] Speaker A: Okay. [00:18:06] Speaker B: Then miraculously, you know, without any energy to move, I took it and then tried to Reach the shore. And then, you know, I remember a little bit further. I collapsed. You know, I lose, I lost my conscience. And then I remember people just coming to carry me. And then I found myself in the house being treated, you know, with some medicine in the rural place. You know, sometimes it's very difficult to describe it. [00:18:37] Speaker A: It's a, it's a desperate, that's a. [00:18:40] Speaker B: It was a really, a very desperate situation. I, I, I wake up. Someone is telling me, wake up, let's go. I don't know who he, who he is, where he's taking me. And I find myself being treated by people I don't know. That's, that was weird. [00:18:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:57] Speaker B: In an area I really don't, I am not used to. So later on, actually, they, they, they gave me some medicine. Then when I was a little back home, then I rested a little bit. Then I started now to think about my life. Then I remember, actually I was back to the school I was teaching because I was a teacher of geometry in high school. So while I was resting during lunchtime, I remember after my lunch, I was just crossing the two opposite blocks. Then I heard a voice to me, dear Donne, I saved you. You remember? So what are you waiting for to follow me? [00:19:40] Speaker A: Wow. [00:19:41] Speaker B: So, wow. And, and I, and I recognized that voice. I said, I know I asked you to save me, and you did it. And still now I, I, I haven't made any decision to follow, to, to follow you. But later on, long story short, I, I gave my life to Jesus before, before we go back to Rwanda. It was, I think, two years before the end of the Rwandan war, actually before the genocide. Then 94, we went back home. I was already saved. Actually, I was even a very young minister, just a simple evangelist. My passion was to preach to people and to see them receiving Jesus Christ. Then when I arrived in Rwanda, everything changed. The Lord told me, you have to be involved in reconciliation ministry. That was actually I said to Jesus, no, I can't do that. I said, I can't do that. Because when I was preaching in Rwanda, they will tell me, hey, what are you talking about? Where your God was when we were dying like flies. So it was very difficult to tell someone, God loves you. Because my people thought, God, actually, he doesn't want, he doesn't want even us to exist. So obviously later on, I was, I gave up. Then I started the reconciliation ministry through music. You know, when you sing, it's very easy people to listen to you. So I organized a lot of concerts in secondary schools. Universities, public places, sometimes through churches. And then it went well, because we had even a tremendous revival between 95 and 2000. This is a tremendous revival. This is. [00:21:29] Speaker A: And go back a little bit, because I think just for people who may not know, you're talking about a reconciliation movement between the Hutus and Tutsis after the genocide in 1994. And just for those who don't know, could you give us just a really brief. [00:21:44] Speaker B: Actually, let me put it like this first. Reconciliation, actually, the Lord told me to be involved in was first the reconciliation between random people and God. I preached the cross for repentance first, and then after I said that, now we have to be busy with God's kingdom. So Hutu and Tutsis, we are the same people. And I used to say that recon is. I will repeat it thousand times. Reconciliation is impossible if we don't have Jesus. [00:22:26] Speaker A: Amen. [00:22:27] Speaker B: Because I tell them that. How, how, for example, how are you going to have a heart of forgiveness to someone who killed your entire family? How are you going to live with someone who decimated the entire village and accept to live with him then? The first miracle which showed me that it was possible is that the president, when he arrived, he told people, stop doing revenge. We understand that there is a resentful. You have grudges, but that revenge will never give us a solution. Actually, they started even to imprison people who are doing revenge. [00:23:09] Speaker A: And so this is just to put in a little perspective. I think that. I think this is helpful. I mean, Rwanda is not a large country in comparison to many states in terms of geographic size. [00:23:19] Speaker B: It's a very tiny, very tiny country. [00:23:22] Speaker A: How would you, how would you describe. I mean, what. How big is it in relation to, like, a US State? [00:23:26] Speaker B: It's. It's not, it's not bigger than. It's. It's only 20, 26, 000 kilometers square. [00:23:36] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. So not. Not a huge area. [00:23:40] Speaker B: It's not huge. [00:23:41] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, and we're talking about over the course of a hundred days, the estimates are somewhere in the neighborhood of over a million people killed. Is that correct? [00:23:54] Speaker B: A million and a half. [00:23:55] Speaker A: A million and a half people killed. Yeah. Over 100 days. And I mean, that is, you know, there's 1.3 million people that reside in the state of Maine. So, I mean, we're, We're. What you're describing is literally, you know, more than all of all. If all Mainers were to be killed within the next. [00:24:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:13] Speaker A: Hundred days, three months. That's the. Yeah. That's the amount of people that. That's. That's what we're describing. And. And there was a. I mean, there's. There's some great documentaries and movies out there that describe these things. They were just horrific experiences. And you were not there during the violence, correct? Your family was. [00:24:29] Speaker B: I was not there. I was in. In the neighbor country. Burundi. [00:24:32] Speaker A: In Burundi. But you obviously had many people. You knew many people. [00:24:35] Speaker B: Obviously. We had many families there. Our uncles, aunties. Yeah, we. Because, for example, in our families, Tutsis, we are related. The ramification goes very far. So we. We lost. We lost a big number of people in our families. [00:24:58] Speaker A: I mean, I. It's such a large. It's such a large number. It's really. It's so hard to even imagine. One of the things I realize every time I hear a story like this, you know, we hear stories of people traveling to the United States and kind of the path they take through Panama and ultimately these really, you know, desperate situations, watching people die, the violence in their home countries. And I have this. You know, I grew up in the suburbs of, you know, North Carolina, rural West Virginia. You know, live in a comfortable spot now. Like, I have no parallel life experience to kind of. There's nothing that I've experienced that even comes close. And that's true for, you know, almost anyone I. Anyone I know. And so it's so hard to wrap our minds around this. I kind of like to at least verbalize that, just to simply say, you know, in a way, thank you for sharing this story. [00:25:55] Speaker B: You're welcome. [00:25:56] Speaker A: You know, it's. It's something that needs to be that I need to hear, that I think our listeners are. Or people are watching, need to hear. The root cellar community needs to hear. And your story is one that's so much like many of the people we serve at the root cellar. So. So you're returning to Rwanda and with this ministry of reconciliation, first to God and then to each other. [00:26:16] Speaker B: First vertical and then second the horizontal. Because my belief. I don't think I will change it if the vertical is not there. The horizontal will not be a reality. By laws. Laws, it's okay. By laws, it's okay. Our president is really doing his best to make laws. He's very tough. If you don't obey the law, he will just punish you. Seriously. So you will see a kind of respect between a Tutsi and a Hutu and a twa. But my belief. My belief, and I think that the problem I had, because I said okay by law, we can respect each other. But my belief is that the ideal is when you have God's forgiveness, you can really forgive properly. [00:27:02] Speaker A: So what does that mean? Like, what's a proper forgiveness? [00:27:05] Speaker B: The proper forgiveness for me is when you accept to be forgiven by the One who created you. You are able to have a proper forgiveness to someone else. I believe that the power, the power of Jesus Christ in someone is able to help someone to love unconditionally. Because I can't just forgive logically, driven by laws. No, it has to come from my heart. And politics, psychology, philosophy, they cannot be able to reach the deep heart. No. Only the power of the Holy Spirit can reach our deep us in our heart. And then from there we can actually not even properly, we can forgive correctly. [00:27:55] Speaker A: Amen. Amen. Amen. I don't have. I can't add anything to that. That's beautiful. Hi, I'm Vicki Kraus. I'm the administrative and financial coordinator here at the Root Cellar. One of my favorite things about the Root Cellar is the community. It feels like family. Individuals from all walks of life and backgrounds. At the Root Cellar, it is our mission to engage neighbors and volunteers to cultivate social, economic and spiritual fullness as part of God's kingdom. This ministry is made possible because of generous donations from individuals just like you to make a gift, volunteer, or learn more. Join us [email protected] I think there's so much power in that. You know, we. Again, you know, I. I hear preachers or myself even, you know, if I teach about freedom. You know, we're talking about forgiving someone because they've said something mean to you. Oh, and you're talking about forgiving someone who has murdered your entire family. [00:28:51] Speaker B: Yes. [00:28:54] Speaker A: That'S, that's, that's the type of thing that they're, you know, what other explanation can there be. [00:29:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:01] Speaker A: For that, except something that's divine. [00:29:04] Speaker B: You know, it was, it was a real. A real desperate situation because, you know, if, if, you know, you saw Hotel Rwanda atrocities, how actually Tutsi people were killed, you know, by machets, burning them, shooting them, raping girls, women, and even. Even taking babies from mother's womb. So it was desperate. A desperate situation to the extent of. Actually I used, I used to ask myself, how are we going to survive this? Yeah. Because that's why actually I refused the ministry. I said, lord, this is impossible. This is impossible because they will never listen to me. Obviously, God is really, you know, actually from that point, I decided not to use any more Myologic because The Lord surprised us. There was a revival. I remember from 95 to 2000, 2002, there was a revival. Rwandan people really decided to call upon God and to be helped by heaven and the heaven invades. Really wonderful. Many solutions, actually. I believe even where we are now, nobody can convince me that it's not only God who really intervene. Intervenes in our. Through all those issues. [00:30:38] Speaker A: Yeah. We wonder if God's at work. And you hear a story like this, it's kind of, what else can it be? So. So to go from. You're involved in reconciliation movement, you know, what's kind of transpired and, you know, ultimately coming to the United States. What's that? That's that part of the story. [00:30:55] Speaker B: Yeah. You in the United States. I liked to read American authors because after my salvation, honestly, I realized that French was very, very poor in theology because I couldn't find really good, good Bibles with good. Then even the spiritual books from authors. It was not really satisfying. Then I decided to read English books and English Bibles. Then I had a blessing to be connected to South Africa in the missionary school. That school was run by Operation Mobilization. So then from there, I. I became a missionary. I increased a little bit my English. And then after that I came to Burundi to be a missionary. And later on I went back to Rwanda. So in Rwanda. In Rwanda, because I had a weird background, because you will excuse me, I'm going to use maybe some terms which are not good. I think in my belief, I am maybe a little bit stubborn. I don't. It's not easy for me to be dragged easily by other ideas. You know, for example, some guys will say, okay, we know you as a revolutionary, someone who was strong in politics and stuff. So why are you talking about Jesus? And why do you think that reconciliation through Jesus will be possible? Why are you so dumb? You, you know, you know, those secular guys, they. They treat you as someone who is not intelligent and stuff. And, you know, I used to tell them that I went through politics before you. I mean, people who were younger than me. You want to talk about Che Guevara? I know him a long time ago. I read him Lenin, everything. So now my. [00:32:47] Speaker A: You've been there. You've been there, done that. [00:32:50] Speaker B: I know the difference. The difference now. But I didn't have power to resist to anything. So I said, Jesus is very different, and I'm going to serve him, and I will never mix politic and the true. The truth of the Bible. Yeah. So then there was a kind of a collision. You Know, they. They just had to fight against me, to sabotage me, to discourage me. They will follow me everywhere. They will. So, you know, with a lot of information, you know, because I was one of them. So, you know, sometimes, you know, you have people who are against you, but among them, you have cousins, you have friends. They will tell you, you know, you are family. Please get out of here. [00:33:38] Speaker A: So you. You were. You were back in Rwanda. [00:33:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:41] Speaker A: And you've kind of come back with this message of reconciliation to God first and then with each other. [00:33:46] Speaker B: Yes. [00:33:46] Speaker A: And everybody there is like, wait a second. We know you. You're the. You're the revolutionary guy. [00:33:51] Speaker B: Yes. [00:33:52] Speaker A: What are you talking about? [00:33:53] Speaker B: Yes. [00:33:54] Speaker A: Obviously, you've. And that apparently made people angry. [00:33:57] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, yeah. [00:34:00] Speaker A: Like, I mean, you know, some people. I can imagine people getting angry that, you know, there's a little bit of a. Hey, who do you think you are? We know who you are. Like, stop being. This is ridiculous. But, I mean, was there a. At what point did it become kind of dangerous, I guess for you? [00:34:14] Speaker B: Exactly. Because, you know, you know, you know, you know, the power of Jesus moved a lot. Actually. Actually, I became. I'm not trying to be. Maybe to use pride. It's a reality. I became a very strong opinion leader because the movement of reconciliation was very strong, and I had powerful songs even until now. They are preaching to people. So then it was disturbing. And then. And then what I didn't want was. I didn't, like, was that kind of arrogance. [00:34:48] Speaker A: Do. [00:34:49] Speaker B: Do things our way. That was. It was unacceptable. [00:34:54] Speaker A: So you. You were doing something different that was gaining popularity. [00:34:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:58] Speaker A: Namely, people were coming to follow Jesus and kind of. Kind of leaving this political, revolutionary way. And the leaders of that were really upset about this. [00:35:09] Speaker B: Yes. [00:35:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:10] Speaker B: Yes. Yes. They don't see. They don't see you in their circles. You are completely out, and you are making an impact. [00:35:17] Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I'll be honest. It's impossible for me not to draw on a little bit of, you know, Saul's. Saul to Paul's, you know, life. [00:35:25] Speaker B: I was. I was about to tell you. Yeah. It's the same spirit. You know, people of law will never understand how. How Paul could preach Jesus Christ. And then you can see that before he didn't have any persecution, he was one of the. The guy who persecuted the. The church. But when he received Jesus, then it was the opposite. [00:35:47] Speaker A: And they couldn't. They couldn't receive that at first. [00:35:49] Speaker B: They were like, whoa. [00:35:50] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So how does that. You're. You're in Rwanda. There's kind of this. It's becoming more dangerous for you. Your family's letting you know, your friends are letting you know what happens next for you. [00:35:59] Speaker B: Actually for me, for me I was not really. I'm not trying to be brave, you know, it was like that. I don't know why it happened like that. I wasn't scared of really dying, but I was thinking about my children. So then I said, no, it is true I want to serve the Lord. But my children, they need really somewhere to grow up free and in love with. You know, to me it was not good for them to face the persecution I was going through. Then the. I talked to my daughter, my second daughter and my two sons. I told them that you guys, we have to find some places for you to go to study. So we were very lucky because I had means to pay tickets to start to pay for them some school fees in the United States. So then my daughter came before. And then this. My first son we didn't have, couldn't have American visa. So the only visa we could have was in Canada. Now he's in Canada in Ottawa. And then my second son, he had a chance to have a visa to come to United States and he was tremendously blessed immediately when he arrived after high school he was granted with a full ride university, Schweidna University. He's an engineer now. Mechanical and mathematics. He started even to work. And then my last born also now then we, we asked for asylum. So I waited for almost six years and then my asylum was. Was granted. Yeah. [00:37:46] Speaker A: Yeah. And you've been. Your asylum was granted last. Last year. [00:37:50] Speaker B: Yeah, last year. [00:37:51] Speaker A: Yeah. Which is a really big day around here. And you've been. Excuse me, work. You've been working here in Maine for a few, for several years now. So what brings you, what brings you to Maine in 2022? [00:38:02] Speaker B: I realized that Maine was my place because I didn't like Texas and I didn't like Arizona. [00:38:09] Speaker A: What about Maine? How was your place? I mean, I'm guessing the weather, it's so. It's so nice here and mild and. [00:38:14] Speaker B: Yeah, the weather is, is very good for me apart from those severe winters. [00:38:20] Speaker A: Sure, sure. [00:38:22] Speaker B: Otherwise, the. In general, Maine's weather is very good for me and also I don't like big, big cities. Yeah, Maine is, is. Is quiet and calm and also it's a good place for immigrants people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:38:37] Speaker A: There's a, there's a, there's a community of immigrants too. [00:38:40] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, there's a huge community. And then accepted. Maine is A good place for me. I won't leave Maine. [00:38:46] Speaker A: All right. [00:38:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:48] Speaker A: So you were. Came to Maine. Came back to Maine. You were. You started volunteering with us kind of on your day off. You were working here locally, right? You're a direct service provider. That's right, yeah. And you had. If I remember correctly, you had. Wednesdays was your day off. You were working pretty hard, and Wednesday was your day off. And we would see you routinely here volunteering, whether in the English program or you led a class for a while. There was just kind of this, like, joy about you. I learned you're part of a local church that supports the root cellar as well. [00:39:20] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. The Center Point. [00:39:22] Speaker A: Yeah, Center Point Church. We've got a lot of great friends over there. Myra Ashley Woodard, another staff member, runs our English program here in Portland. She's part of that church, really great church. And we had this opportunity for a program director, and you were able to come along. It seems to be ultimately just the right fit, the right time. God's always kind of provided the right people at the right time. I've kind of seen that over the years. You know, we lose people. [00:39:45] Speaker B: You. [00:39:45] Speaker A: You effectively replaced Sean Noe, who had been here for, you know, over a decade. And I know he was just incredibly excited that you were taking. Taking the reins here since you. Since you come on board here. You know, one of the things we've. We've been asking lately is, you know, recognizing that God, you know, your story is. Is one of. It reflects this so much. He's constantly in the work of. Of restoring lives, communities, cities, countries, in your case, in Rwanda, and just, you know, incredible, incredible ways. And he's not only doing that there, he's doing that here in Portland. He's doing that here at the root cellar. How has God. Have you seen and observed God restoring, doing that work of reconciliation, of restoration here at the root cellar since you. Since you've been on staff? [00:40:30] Speaker B: First of all, for me, it was a kind of a history repetition. I was first of all surprised to see that I can again, in the middle of a city and work with and telling them about the kingdom. It was a surprise for me here in United States because, as I told you, I was a DSP doing other works. Really very tiresome. You don't have even your time to think. Root cellar was a kind of. Really a miracle for me to go back to what I used to do before, because actually there is a kind of similarity. Not even similar. It's almost the same thing. A little bit of difference. You know, in Kigali, downtown in the middle, I used to coordinate pastors from other countries to preach what we call the lunch hour fellowship. You know, the difference is I used to have a narrow mind where I was in Kigali just preaching people on the pulpit. But at Ruth Seller, it's a real life. Teaching people English, giving, giving them tools to be integrated in American culture and helping children, for example, the child care after school and teenage and food sharing. I can say God is doing for me a kind of extrapolation for me really to understand the real heart of God. You know, in Kigari I reached people preaching them, telling them things for them actually to meet God so that he can their needs somewhere else because we didn't have things to give them. But at Rootsella it is very practical. You know, it was a new experience to engage, to engage people, to engage an immediate neighborhood. And my goodness, I never volunteers in my ministry here. So to have the entire neighborhood involved and volunteers then meet immediately, their social, economical, spiritual wholeness for me it was really a tremendous highway of service really. Jesus out of synagogue. Actually I, I grew, I grew up spiritually. Yeah. From, from where I was in Rwanda and where I'm at root cellar, I, I, I, I am becoming complete, you know. You know, sorry to be so. To use a lot of strong words, religious behavior could conquer me easily before I got to at Ruth Seller. But now at Ruth Seller I'm really experiencing a reality, a reality of the heart of God towards people. Not just being a guy of pulpit and the guitar singing for people. And also the similarity is. It's amazing how actually even if I don't like cities, God is always bringing me in ministries, Ministries which are looking for to be rooted in urban areas and then to transform, to transform urban areas into God's kingdom. It's really amazing. It's very exciting. [00:43:55] Speaker A: How are you seeing that happen kind of day to day here in our programs and ministries? Where are you seeing that happen? [00:44:02] Speaker B: Let me give you an example of in our English learning language. I can see, I can see how teachers and students, after few sessions of learning English, you see how students are excited to communicate to teachers and to our staff. And then also without being religious, our spirit of God is really attracting them. Then there is an attraction of, of that spirit and also the facilitation through the, the language of English. It is really bringing a tremendous impact in terms of transformation in another way. The community is being built easily and strongly in the English learning language part. Obviously, if you go to foodshare. There is a tremendous, I can say a tremendous relationship between people who are coming to to have food and people who are distributing it to the extent of sometimes I can see that they forget even that it's all about food. So we, the kingdom of God really is being demonstrated among us everywhere. In Ell, in the food chair, in after school. Okay. In the teenage we are it is already reframed. I can see that teenage, for example, they are now they have expectation in reality now I can see them really becoming mentors. Before, it looks like we were dealing with them as if they were kids too. So now it is changing. I don't know really what happened. They are becoming very responsible. They have a conscience of mentors now. So it is really exciting. Everything is taking is shaping to a real kingdom of God mindset. Yeah. [00:46:03] Speaker A: Beautiful. [00:46:04] Speaker B: Beautiful. [00:46:04] Speaker A: Well, Jude, Nate, thank you so much for this time and it's a blessing to hear your story. I know that anybody who listens or hears this is going to always be blessed by your story. It's amazing to me how God is uniquely positioned you to to be part of our leadership here, to be part of this ministry, part of the of the Root Cellar, part of our organization. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Root Cellar Podcast. This ministry depends on the faithful giving of individuals just like you. For us, it's an honor to be partnered with so many in the work of loving our neighbors. When you give monthly, you create jobs for teens, mentor children, welcome immigrants, and expand God's kingdom in our cities. To learn more, volunteer or make a gift, join [email protected] farther along. [00:47:04] Speaker B: Understand why? [00:47:09] Speaker A: So cheer up my bro. Live in the song.